#thelastofus #TLOU The penultimate Season 2 episode gives us flashbacks of the last five years and what caused the deterioration of Joel and Ellie's relationship, and how his death may affect her hunt for Abby and the other wolves who were present for it.
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What's up, hybrids? Welcome back to another episode
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of the Phantom Hybrid Podcast. This is Hanukkah and I'm here
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with Anthony and we are discussing the Season 2
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penultimate episode already of The Last of Us.
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Anthony said something before we started this recording.
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He said I wasn't going to like him very much.
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So what is the problem? Give it to me now.
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Let me, let me take it in. This episode was kind of mad for
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me. Yeah, I.
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I'm kicking you off this recording right now.
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I'm kicking you off. There's some things that that I
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don't like with the doing with Joe's character, like he was
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like this hard ass, like bad ass, and now he's like this
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soft, sappy, mushy person and this this is like, and then we
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throw the trope in here, the abusive dad.
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They actually actually, I will say that this introductory, this
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cold open is probably the best thing this season.
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But then the rest of the episode is kind of like.
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Oh my God, I'm about to throw you away because this was
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actually one of my, if not my favorite episode this season.
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Only because it's got Joel in it.
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Well, I mean that too, but it also, I feel like it gives a
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little bit one, it does give a little more insight into Joel
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and Ellie's relationship and how good wasn't that how it kind of
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deteriorated? There were just a lot of things
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that they played with in this episode that really like really
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touched me. And yes, they did show kind of
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the Joel that was, you know, he's, you know, he's getting
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used to being a father again. He's getting used to being
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vulnerable again. But you remember, you got to
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remember, even though it was a very, very brief moment, we saw
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that type of Joel at the very beginning of the whole show when
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Sarah was a lie. So the.
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Whole the whole heart, you know, hard hearted persona, the tough
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guy, whatever this was a guy who literally had been keeping
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people at arm's lane. You know, this was a person who
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had not allowed himself to love, not allowed himself to feel and
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so that's what you saw. Now, I think here when we see it
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with him and Ellie, I think it kind of fits because even
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though, you know, there's there's still clickers around,
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there's still Cordyceps around, there's still danger.
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They're a little bit more safe in the town.
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So I think he kind of just felt like he could relax a little bit
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and just try to nurture this, this relationship that he never
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expected to have. And I just think we saw that.
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But I thought it was beautiful. I thought it was beautiful.
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But anyway, so OK, we'll talk about your sucky feelings like,
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no, just joking. We'll, we'll, we'll talk about
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it. We'll see if we can come to like
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a, a impasse or middle ground. But let's talk about this cold
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open because hi, Jack. I, I swear, ever since I've seen
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him in Hawkeye, I'm seeing Tony Dalton everywhere now.
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I'm just like, we're just all over the place 'cause I didn't
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know his character was in Daredevil.
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And then he showed up and born again and then saw him in
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something else recently that I don't remember.
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And I was just like, I'm seeing your face everywhere.
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But he plays Joel and Tommy's father in this one.
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And I like, I like the way that that we got to see a little bit
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of them when they were young because in this instance, you
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see Joel, even back then was a protector.
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Yeah, he has a What is a savior complex?
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Yes, and it started very young, but you understand it now.
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You kind of understand it now because he was taking care of
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his brother, because their father was.
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Abusive. So, so this is the the thing
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that kind of got me about that part because and I feel like
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with the way the conversation went, and maybe this is just a
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generational thing because when Joel is talking to Tommy and
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Tommy is like, he's going to hit me.
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I'm going to get the belt. Now, me being a Gen.
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X kid who grew up in the 80s in a black in a, you know,
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relatively black household, let me say my mother is Japanese.
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So anyway, but I did not take that, especially consider that
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was 1983. I didn't necessarily take that
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as he was going to be be beaten. Some kids don't like to get
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spanked and spanking for me as a child that that was a normal
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thing. If you misbehave, you got
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spanked, you didn't get beat. So I was kind of listening to
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the word play in that particular scene.
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And then, of course, when you have the, the, the confrontation
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or not even confrontation conversation between Joel and
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his father and Joel says you're not going to hit him.
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And his father is kind of like he has this look of, I don't
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know if his resignation, but he, you know, when he goes to get
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the beers and he comes back down to the table.
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I'm thinking if this was a person who was really like
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abusive in the way that we know abusive, this is a man who would
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have hit the wall at that. He probably would have blown his
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top, but he's not. He sits down, opens the beers,
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and he kind of starts telling Joel a story about a time when
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he stole something because that's how this whole thing
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started. Tommy apparently went to go buy
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some weed from somebody, got into a fight.
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Joe came by, kicked the guy's ass, and here we are.
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But when he was talking about his punishment or what happened
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with his dad, he said, my dad made me take it back.
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He made me apologize. And then we drove home.
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And so you're thinking this is just a normal car ride home.
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And he says when he got ready to get out of the car, his father
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punched him in the face so hard that he's that he broke his jaw
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and caused him to bleed. Now that is definitely abusive.
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OK, again, Gen. X mine.
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That's definitely abusive. Yeah.
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And he said yeah, my mouth was wired shut for two weeks, for
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two months. Everybody knew that.
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Was humiliating, yes, that sort of thing is.
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But then he starts talking about he was like, yeah, I, I hit you.
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And Tommy, he was like, but it's nothing.
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And I mean, it's almost like he was offended that they were
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comparing to what his father used to do because he was like,
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I, I, I never hit you that like that.
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And I was just. It was.
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Yeah, but he also said. I know sometimes I may have went
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too far. I may have gone too far.
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That's when I started kind of shifting.
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That's where. That's where he knows and I have
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done it as much or as often or as bad as his father did to him,
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you know, and and he says, you know, and and hopefully one day
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when you have one, you will do better than me.
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And, you know, and I think that was really a the reason why I
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really like that was it was really making a statement on
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generational Trump and and his father was trying to do better,
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but he was still sometimes go too far.
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Right, right. And I would, that's what I was
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going to say because it's like, again, this is something that I
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have a conversation with my own kids at this point, my kids are
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in their 20s. So we do talk a lot about things
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that happened when I was a child and the way things are now or
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the way things were when they were a child, because I am one
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of those parents. I believe in spankings, you
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know, and, and we did that. Now, if I was raising younger
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children, I don't think I would do that just because.
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Do you think about the kind of effect that has on a child and
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just all of the different psychological things?
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And you see a lot of things that children are dealing with now
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that that we didn't deal with. And it's just it it makes you
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look at certain things a little bit differently.
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But there are still some things that I will look at with my Gen.
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X mind and be like, OK, but that really wasn't that bad, you know
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what I'm saying? And I think I kind of started
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looking at that scene that way because I was like, OK, yes, he
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is admitting, which is not typical of abusers.
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Abusers don't generally admit when they are wrong.
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They don't admit that they're doing something that's harmful
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and that sort of thing. So that's the thing I was paying
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attention to with him. Like, he felt bad about what he
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did. You know, that.
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No, that doesn't make it right. But he did acknowledge.
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OK, yeah, maybe sometimes I go a little too far, but it's nowhere
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near as bad as he was. And hopefully by the time you
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have children, you won't be as bad as I am.
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You know, it's like some people, when they talk about breaking
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generational curses, a lot of people want this to be like a
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thing like, oh, you know, that's wrong.
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Just stop doing it. And sometimes it's not that
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easy. Sometimes there are things that
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are ingrained in us that we have to unlearn.
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And sometimes we can unlearn it fairly quickly.
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Sometimes it takes years to unlearn.
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So I like that they put that in the show because they did show
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that. OK.
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Yeah, it's, it's a, it's a thing, it's a generational thing
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that he's trying to break. And then, of course, you see
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Joel trying to do that as well. He tried to do it with his own
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daughter. And of course, what happened
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happened. So now he feels like he has a
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second chance and he's trying to do it again with this child that
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he rescued. And I, I, I did love seeing
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that, you know? There, there was a show that I
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think it was on Apple on TV, the TV app.
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I can't remember what it what what it was called, but it was
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about this boy who was going to be he was show sitting in Great
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Britain. And it was about this boy who
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had killed a girl with his classmate, and they were trying
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to determine whether or not he was sane enough to stand trial
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because of how young he was in there.
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His father talked about being abused himself by his father,
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and he tried to do the opposite. He tried to be different than
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his father was towards his son. But then he started thinking
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maybe he was too soft. Yeah.
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Because his son ended up. Being yeah.
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So it's kind of hard to find that balance when you're
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unlearning such harmful behavior.
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But I, I do like they showed that this was somebody that he
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tried. And it, it's obvious that, I
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don't know, Joel and Tommy didn't have resentment towards
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their father. Because if you notice, when his
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father got ready to leave and he touched his shoulder, his father
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was wearing the watch that Joel wears.
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And I was like, oh, OK, you know, and maybe that was just
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kind of an acknowledgement of, OK, yeah, my dad wasn't the
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best, but he tried. He tried his.
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Best, I didn't actually like that because I think it took
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away from the significance of Sarah giving him the watch.
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Because we don't, we don't really understand or we really
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don't get Tommy and Joel's feelings about their father.
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Like we have this cold open, but we don't know if they ever
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resolved it, if they ever talked about it.
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It did the why did the watch have significance to him?
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And So what we're left with is seeing the watch we have to fill
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in for ourselves, right. And I don't, I don't necessarily
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like that for this. I would have preferred maybe
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more of that conversation or maybe a next day conversation
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about it and him acknowledging that, yeah, you know what I am
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doing wrong. And I I yeah, I was wrong.
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You know what I'm saying? Like make it mean something.
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Because up until this point, the watch meant for us, it was the
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last thing of his that Sarah had given him.
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You know, that's the significance to him.
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Now what you've done is you've shifted the significance away
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and not make her contribution as important or as emotional.
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Does that make sense? And just just for me, it it that
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kind of it kind of takes away from it a little bit because
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it's not like it was a watch that he bought and he was like,
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yeah, I really like this watch. And then you broke it.
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And then she went and got it fixed.
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That's really significant for him.
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Yeah. But I for me, I think the
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significance is the fact that it was his father's watch.
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And when the watch broke, instead of throwing it away, he
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kept it. And she understood how much that
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watch meant to him, which is why she took it.
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And when it had it fixed so that he can have it with him again.
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So I. Think.
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But we don't. We don't know that We don't know
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that we don't know. Why is it significant to him?
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Just because he belongs to his father doesn't make it that
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significant. I have a.
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It it would have I would need more forward to me anything for
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me but otherwise it takes away from it.
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I feel, I kind of feel like with the way that they ended that
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particular scene, especially focused on the watch, I feel
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like we that's not the last we'll see of that.
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I have a feeling we may see either a continuation of that
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conversation or we'll see another flashback maybe having
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to do with Tommy because, you know, obviously Tommy is being
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brought back into the story in Seattle, even though we haven't
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seen him yet. But maybe that will.
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They will find a way to connect that and show us why it's so
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important. That's the way I got it.
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I don't think we're going to see Tommy until next.
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Season I, I kind of feel that. I kind of feel that way too
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because even after watching the promo for the next episode,
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which is the season finale, I don't think Tommy is in it.
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So I was like, oh, y'all going to make us wait until the third
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season? Because he's going to be yeah,
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he's going to be Abby's big bad. That's yeah.
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OK, I like that. Well, yeah, OK, we'll see.
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Because because I have, I still have questions about the way
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that plays out, but we'll we'll talk about that later on.
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Let's let's move with the episode.
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So this this episode is basically all flashbacks all
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about significant days for Ellie, her birthday.
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So we see everything from her 15th birthday, which is the 1st
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birthday she has after Salt Lake City, all the way up into the
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most recent, her 19th birthday. And just kind of with those
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birthdays, we see the relationship kind of
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deteriorating. But the first thing I want to
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say is Joel is back in the intro, The little cortex.
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Yeah, the little I was. Like, yeah, but then immediately
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I started tearing up too. I was like, OK, so this means
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y'all about to like, just kind of put my heart through the
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wringer. OK, I'll take it if we have him.
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But yeah, I was glad to see that.
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So the first flashback that we see is Ellie's 15th birthday.
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And this is kind of funny because this takes place two
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months after Salt Lake City when they come back to Jackson and
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they're they're starting to get settled in.
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And the first thing you see is Joel kind of establishing a bit
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of AI. Don't necessarily want to say
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relationship with Seth, but it's kind of like an agreement.
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Like Seth is looking at him like, oh, you're the new guy.
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And Joel is like, I've been here two months.
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But you know, they go into this conversation where they're
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trading and they're bartering for stuff.
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And what we find out is that Seth used to be a cop.
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And he reveals this because Joe comes in with a bag of Legos and
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Seth is like, oh, my grandkids will love this.
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Well, where did you find it? And Joel is like, well, I found
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it at the houses, blah, blah. And Seth was like, I searched
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those houses. And what did Joe say?
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He said, well, you know, I used to be a smuggler.
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And you, your this. And Seth gets really offended by
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that because, you know, he's tending bar.
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And Joel is obviously kind of implying that, oh, you're just
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the bartender. He was like, no, I used to be a
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cop. And then Joel looks up at him
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and his face kind of changed. And I was like, Oh yeah, 'cause
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his dad used to be a cop. Dad used to be a cop.
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So they have a conversation. It's a real really weird
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conversation. And then you find out they're
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talking about cakes because Ellie's birthday is coming up.
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So Joel, he asked for the cake and then he also asked for
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something else. And when he comes home, he has a
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piece of bone. Now I'm looking like, what are
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you about to do with this bone? And then you go into his room
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and you see all of his wood making tools.
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And I, I kind of forgot about that for a minute that Joel,
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he's. A.
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Carpenter. He Yeah, he's carved stuff.
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Not just, you know, not just wood to build buildings, but he
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also made things. And I think we saw a little bit
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of that when Ellie went through his room after his death.
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And so it takes his bone and he he like really saws it down to
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this little bitty piece. And basically what he's doing is
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he's rebuilding a guitar for Ellie because he's told her that
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he would teach her how to play. And then when he gets ready to,
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you know, try to test it out, you hear Tommy come in the house
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with what sounds like a very drunk Ellie, But she's not
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drunk. She's on pain medication because
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she tried to burn her arm on purpose, like we learned she did
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when she told Dina. And it's it's so funny because
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like I said, she seems like she's drunk.
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She's on, but she's on painkillers.
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And Joel and Tommy are having this conversation about why she
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would have done it and who was watching her.
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And then they realized that she did it on purpose.
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And Joel is trying to figure out like, what the fuck, Ellie, why
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are you doing? And she was like, I'm so sorry.
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I just really wanted to wear short sleeves again.
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And it sounded funny when she said it to Dina.
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What was last episode or two episodes ago.
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But then you realize that's really why she burned the pot
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because she was so used to wearing long sleeves because she
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was hiding her her bite mark and she just wanted to wear short
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sleeves again, it sounds kind of stupid when you say it like
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that, but then if you think about the fact that this is a 14
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year old girl about to turn 15, stuff like that is important to
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her, you know, and. One one small detail about the
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bone, the bone he put in the guitar is actually because he
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because of her, the bite and the Cordyceps bumps, he wants to
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make sure her hand arm didn't chafe.
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So that's why he didn't use wood, he used bone.
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OK. So he was being conscientious.
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OK, Yeah, a little bit more of that softening that you don't
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like, huh, Anthony? Right, Whatever, whatever.
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But I think I, I like this scene and then the scene that follows
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afterwards because, and I think this is one of the reasons why I
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really, really like the episode as well.
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Because from the time that we meet Ellie, Ellie is already
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she's already kind of hard and she's already a smart ass.
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She's already like, she's always on the defensive and she doesn't
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allow anybody to get close to her until Joel.
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And then what you kind of see in this episode, especially the
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first couple of birthdays, you really get to see her be a child
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in a way that I don't think the character has ever had a chance
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to do. Right?
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Because when they're in Boston, they grow up in Phedra.
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Phedra teaches them how to be soldiers.
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Because of course you've got these monsters running around
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who have no sense of, no sense of sense.
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I mean, you know, to put it, to put it lightly, they, they just,
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they're mindless killing machines.
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They're all they're doing is looking to affect and create
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more Cordyceps. So I don't think she's ever
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really had a childhood. So for her to get a present,
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like a guitar for her to get a cake.
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You saw she got the cake. And when he turned around to get
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the knife, turned back around, she had already, I mean, it was
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like a what do we call a smash cake for a one year old?
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We always let the one year old smash the cake.
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And that's exactly what she did. And I felt like I was like, this
00:22:05
is what we have been missing from Ellie's character, a chance
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to see her actually be and act like a child.
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Because she's never been to a birthday party.
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No. Where do you cut the cake?
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No. And.
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Not only that, I don't one of the things that I noticed
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throughout the episode and I think one of the things that
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really made Joel's betrayal hard for her.
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I don't think she's ever had an adult take that kind of interest
00:22:35
in her genuinely because they, they loved her and they wanted
00:22:40
to just make her happy. I think from the moment Marlene
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got her, I think Marlene kept her at an arm's length because
00:22:50
this is a child who may one day save the world.
00:22:53
Again, we've had this conversation.
00:22:55
If this is a child that's going to save the world, and chances
00:22:57
are she can't live in order to do that, I'm not going to let
00:23:01
myself get attached to her because why would I do that if I
00:23:03
know I'm going to lose her, you know?
00:23:06
So I don't think she's ever had that.
00:23:08
And so watching the things that Joe did for her for her
00:23:12
birthdays in this episode, the way that he kind of talks to
00:23:15
her, the way he treats her, because it is kind of sort of
00:23:19
like a parent, but also differently than a parent.
00:23:23
Because there's no way if I come into my children's room at, at
00:23:28
what was it 17 at the time and find them smoking pot and making
00:23:32
out and, and doing all this other stuff and then they
00:23:35
decide, oh, well, I'm going to go move into the garage.
00:23:38
There's no way. I would have been like, OK, I
00:23:40
think you need your space. No, you're a child again,
00:23:43
different times. Because I don't have to worry
00:23:45
about the kind of world that they are living in.
00:23:48
And Joel no longer has the luxury of raising a child in the
00:23:52
world that we live in. But I, I, I enjoyed seeing her
00:24:01
Glee throughout the episode when she saw the things that she
00:24:05
loved, when she walked into the Space Museum for her for her
00:24:12
16th birthday, just the look of childlike wonder.
00:24:16
And I think I mentioned this in the last episode as well.
00:24:18
You know, we get on Ellie about, OK, you know what, you're really
00:24:21
being inappropriate because y'all got other stuff to worry
00:24:24
about. But again, we have to take into
00:24:26
account she's never seen a lot of this stuff before.
00:24:29
It's just like when she saw the airplane in the first season.
00:24:32
I feel like we have to give her time to.
00:24:35
She should be allowed to do that for a little bit.
00:24:38
I know it can be impatient for us because we like, yo, Abby is
00:24:41
there. You gotta you gotta do this.
00:24:43
But I think those moments are important as well because it
00:24:47
kind of shapes her character later on and some of the
00:24:50
decisions she's gonna make later on.
00:24:53
And the same goes for Joel, because you have to understand
00:24:59
why he's made the decisions he's made.
00:25:01
And I think part of. That, but I don't I don't agree
00:25:06
with the it's going to help explain her decisions later.
00:25:09
She's supposed to be motivated by revenge, anger and hate and
00:25:14
rage, not this sappy stuff right here.
00:25:18
Well, again, we're talking about the whole generational curse
00:25:22
thing. And when we see the the end
00:25:25
scene that happens and think about the fact that this is the
00:25:30
last conversation that she had with him before he died.
00:25:34
And he also talked in a kind of, you know, off topic way about
00:25:40
breaking that generational curse.
00:25:41
When he talks about what he did for her in Salt Lake City and
00:25:45
why he would do it again, you know, because she wanted to look
00:25:48
at him like she was like you, you're you're selfish.
00:25:51
He was like, because I love you in a way that I don't think you
00:25:54
understand. He said if you ever get a chance
00:25:58
to have your own, I hope you'll be better than me.
00:26:02
And I think I think that transition from her childlike
00:26:06
behavior and her wonder in the midst of all this stuff, it's
00:26:10
supposed to allow us to see that maybe she is trying.
00:26:15
Because I think she hesitated in the last episode when it came to
00:26:21
Nora because she realized what she was about to do.
00:26:25
And then, you know, of course, Nora being defiant, not telling
00:26:29
her about Abby saying that, you know, saying the things about
00:26:32
Joel about, yeah, the little bitch deserved and stuff like
00:26:34
that. I think that kind of pushed it
00:26:36
out the window. But I think it is kind of
00:26:39
showing us her teetering between being just like Joel, You know,
00:26:45
remember what I taught you? Even though that wasn't what he
00:26:48
was talking about, I think that's what we're supposed to be
00:26:50
thinking about. This is kind of sort of what he
00:26:53
taught her, this violence, this, you know, this way of handling
00:26:58
things that he was trying to change.
00:27:03
And then you see the things that he did to protect her, and he's
00:27:09
like, yeah, I'd do it again. And she's thinking about that.
00:27:14
Yeah, but the the the problem is, though, she was raised early
00:27:19
by Ephedra to be the way she is. I know, which is why I think
00:27:24
that got along so well. I don't think his violence ever
00:27:27
bothered her because it was already instilled in her when
00:27:32
they met. You know, that that that part of
00:27:36
him was already in her. Now when she could learn from
00:27:40
him is what feds didn't teach him, which was the compassion
00:27:44
part. Yeah.
00:27:46
You know. And even though this is the
00:27:50
world that that they're living in, I think as parents, if we
00:27:55
can shield our children from that kind of thing, we would.
00:27:59
And if we if we could give them the opportunity to, to do better
00:28:04
or be better and not be this thing like, OK, I'll, I'll go be
00:28:08
the asshole. I'll go be the violent person.
00:28:11
I just want you to be a regular child.
00:28:13
And I think that's what he was trying to do.
00:28:15
Yeah, and and the other thing I wanted to say is as a father, I
00:28:18
totally understand what what he did because he literally loves
00:28:24
her like a child, like his own child.
00:28:27
And of course, it doesn't matter if if sacrificing her would save
00:28:31
everyone, that would take away someone he loved.
00:28:34
And if he could spend time with her, he would, especially after
00:28:37
losing one daughter, you know, and, and he has another one.
00:28:43
He's not going to lose her when he can save her.
00:28:45
Right. Yeah, and and have this time
00:28:48
with her. Look, especially because losing
00:28:52
her, OK, yeah, you saved all of these people are again, we've
00:28:57
had this conversation. You may not save them because
00:29:00
even though she asked him the question, could they have made a
00:29:03
cure? And he answered yes.
00:29:06
Yeah, and and that's another. Thing that kind of technology.
00:29:10
That, that kind of still bothered me too, because I know
00:29:14
we're really not supposed to compare it to the game, but I'm
00:29:19
going to compare it to the game. They they don't ever
00:29:21
definitively say whether or not it would have worked because of
00:29:29
all the stuff that's involved, the mass production
00:29:33
distribution, testing it. Even if they could like the odds
00:29:39
of it actually being successful are so slim.
00:29:43
And she literally she talk about her life heavy meaning her life.
00:29:46
She literally could have sacrificed herself for nothing.
00:29:49
For nothing. Yeah, but we have to remember
00:29:53
too, she's looking out at all of this from 1, The mindset of a
00:29:59
child, you know, because we see this, this whole episode takes
00:30:04
place between her being 14 and 19.
00:30:07
So she's still a child. She's still looking at things in
00:30:09
a child like way. And I think as she gets older,
00:30:12
like especially the the 19th birthday stuff, when she's
00:30:18
practicing the questions that she's about to ask him, of
00:30:21
course she's gotten older. So she's thinking about things
00:30:24
probably in a different way. She's probably looking at things
00:30:27
that happened in a different light and that's why she's
00:30:30
questioning it. But also the other thing I think
00:30:36
we have to remember, and this is the thing that really hit home
00:30:41
for me when they were having a conversation on the porch again,
00:30:44
going back to her in the way in the way she was raised.
00:30:50
I don't think she's ever had an adult love her in that way, if
00:30:55
at all. When Joel told her right then
00:30:58
and there that he loved her, that's probably the first time
00:31:01
she's ever heard it in her life. Yeah.
00:31:04
You know, in in a very direct way.
00:31:06
I'm not talking about relationships she may have had.
00:31:10
I'm not talking about the kind of like the off remark that Dana
00:31:15
did last week. Oh, yeah.
00:31:16
And that's why I love you. And she's like, you love me.
00:31:18
OK, Yeah, that's cute and stuff for that type of relationship.
00:31:21
But we all know it's one thing to know people love us, but for
00:31:27
some people, we have to hear it in order for it to kind of stick
00:31:31
in our minds. And I think her having him in
00:31:36
her life in that way, showing her the things that again, make
00:31:40
her happy, the dinosaur, the space stuff, like that whole
00:31:44
scene was, again, I loved it because I don't think we've ever
00:31:49
seen her happy in that sense, not until then.
00:31:55
Like, pure joy on her face. And also for him, the fact that
00:31:58
he made her happy enough that it made him shed a tear.
00:32:02
That's something that Joe probably has not felt since
00:32:04
Sarah died. That kind of all-encompassing
00:32:08
love for another person. Yeah, he feels it for Tommy.
00:32:11
But Tommy is his brother. Tommy has his own family.
00:32:15
It's different. You know what I'm saying?
00:32:18
Yeah, and also, you know, as a teenager, one of the struggles
00:32:24
that most teenagers have starting at 131415 is purpose.
00:32:31
Like they don't they they start thinking, well, why am I here?
00:32:35
What is what is my purpose? And her early on in her mind,
00:32:40
she had a concrete purpose. She knew what her purpose was in
00:32:45
life. And for her, Joel took that
00:32:47
away. Yeah, You know, and, and she
00:32:51
spent, you know, a great deal of her teenage years trying to
00:32:56
figure out what her purpose is now, which is what a lot of
00:32:59
teenagers go through, you know, at at that time in their lives.
00:33:02
So I I could see how it still would be very frustrating to her
00:33:07
to feel like that that was taken away from her, even though we
00:33:10
never had the choice anyway. Right.
00:33:12
And that's. What I would.
00:33:14
Like to say it's, it's sad that we have to understand that with
00:33:17
her because she never had any other choice.
00:33:19
No, like I'm sure when Marlene was keeping her isolated from
00:33:24
the other kids and not allowing her to do some of the things
00:33:27
that other kids did because she was trying to protect her.
00:33:31
But protect her for what? She wasn't protecting her
00:33:35
because she loved her and because, oh, I just want to make
00:33:38
sure she say no, you're protecting her because she has
00:33:41
the potential cure in her body and that's what makes her
00:33:44
important to you. And the fact that that's all she
00:33:48
ever knew growing up to the point where I, I feel like she
00:33:52
was a little bit obsessed maybe with the whole thing with Salt
00:33:59
Lake City and, you know, her not being able to provide the cure.
00:34:04
Even if she believed his story about there being other immune
00:34:09
people and about the Raiders or whatever, just the fact that
00:34:12
that was such a huge loss to her because that's what she felt
00:34:16
like she was worth. I think that bothers me because
00:34:21
at you said it 13 through 1617, they're wondering what their
00:34:27
purpose is. And I, I kind of sort of feel
00:34:29
like, how can you make children feel like they have to determine
00:34:36
what their whole life is going to be as a teenager when they've
00:34:39
never lived life? Right.
00:34:43
So there there's a lot of different emotions that go along
00:34:48
with this episode because on the one hand, yeah, I can kind of
00:34:51
see what you mean as far as Joel, like, OK, this is not the
00:34:55
Joel we're used to. This is a this is a softer Joel.
00:34:59
This is a more emotional Joel. This is a more vulnerable Joel.
00:35:02
And we don't see him in that way very often.
00:35:06
It's very, very rare. I think the last time we saw him
00:35:10
that fully vulnerable probably was the first time they were in
00:35:18
Jackson, when he knew he had to take Ellie and he didn't think
00:35:21
he'd be able to do it. And he talked to Tommy.
00:35:23
He was like, hey, I need you to do this because I don't think
00:35:25
I'm going to be able to to do this.
00:35:28
Which ironically is So it struck me today that if if Ellie had
00:35:35
just let Joel do what he wanted to do, which was let Tommy take
00:35:39
her, she probably would have gotten her wish because Tommy
00:35:43
had no attachment to her. And Joe's choice of words.
00:35:49
I, I, I thought about it today when he was like, I don't think
00:35:52
I'm going to be able to do what she needs me to do.
00:35:55
I can't keep her safe if I go with her.
00:36:01
Because he knew. He knew she was going to go
00:36:03
there to die. I don't think he really
00:36:06
understood that baby. I think, I think he did deep
00:36:09
down and I think that's why he didn't want to go.
00:36:14
OK. Because he, I think he had a
00:36:16
feeling that that would be the last time he saw her.
00:36:20
And if he went with her, he, I think he also knew.
00:36:24
He was going to do what he ended up doing.
00:36:26
He wasn't going to let them do that.
00:36:28
Yeah, yeah. So when they confirm and he only
00:36:31
went I think because she really wanted him to go.
00:36:34
Yes, and that's the thing I was going to say the.
00:36:36
Reason why he went. But when Mark when when she told
00:36:39
him that yeah, she probably not going to make it.
00:36:43
Yeah, y'all, Y'all was dead down.
00:36:45
Yeah, because I, I think going in, he probably was still
00:36:49
hoping, like, you know, I think he talked to her about it being
00:36:53
a like blood, a blood thing. Like, oh, they're probably just
00:36:56
going to take some blood. Blood.
00:36:58
I think he really hoped that that's what it was.
00:37:01
But yeah, now that you say that, I think maybe in the back of his
00:37:05
mind he did know. Like there's a possibility.
00:37:08
But back then it didn't matter to him because she was just
00:37:10
cargo. Remember, She was just cargo.
00:37:13
She. Wasn't well, I think by the time
00:37:15
they got to Jackson, she was. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:37:18
And you know, I, I was thinking about that earlier today.
00:37:21
Like, you know what if Ellie had just let him back out, chicken
00:37:28
out however she wanted to put it because she called him a coward.
00:37:31
But if she had let him do that, then maybe she would have quote
00:37:34
UN quote fulfilled her destiny. She would have cause Tommy
00:37:37
wouldn't have stopped her. Tommy probably would have been
00:37:41
like, OK, if this is what it takes to cure this, then maybe
00:37:46
OK. Because again, he wasn't that
00:37:48
attached to her. But I, I just think maybe now
00:37:58
we're looking at this, I think now we can look at Ellie's story
00:38:04
from this point on and maybe even going back a couple of
00:38:07
episodes with a different perspective because of that
00:38:10
conversation that she had with him on the porch.
00:38:13
Because, you know, when we saw it originally, we thought she
00:38:16
just walked into the garage and that was it.
00:38:19
And that, you know, everything that happened the next day,
00:38:22
because it again, it was literally the next day that all
00:38:24
this happened. And we're just thinking, oh,
00:38:28
that was the last conversation she had with him.
00:38:31
Oh, she must be feeling guilty and all this other stuff.
00:38:34
And it's it takes on a different meaning for me now because she's
00:38:40
angry that she didn't get the time to do whatever needed to be
00:38:44
done to forgive him because she thought that they would have
00:38:49
time. He thought that they would have
00:38:51
time. Yeah, but he got what Eugene
00:38:53
didn't get. She got her last words, which
00:38:58
were, which was. I don't.
00:39:02
I will try. I think it's what she said.
00:39:04
She said. I don't think I can ever forgive
00:39:06
you for this, but I would like to try.
00:39:08
But I would like to try. And that's all he needed.
00:39:11
Yeah. Yeah, He he got his closure.
00:39:15
And like poor Eugene. So I was not.
00:39:20
I don't even know if I realized. Joey Pantel, I cannot say his.
00:39:25
Joy pants. Yeah, just kind of joy pants.
00:39:27
Joy pants. Joy pants.
00:39:29
I did not. I don't know if I remember him
00:39:31
being cast or being announced as being cast, but when I when I
00:39:35
heard, I heard the voice first because I'm not used to seeing
00:39:39
him bald and with the Gray beard I I'm not used to that.
00:39:44
He's a cipher, but older. Yeah, but see, he was kind of
00:39:49
off to the back when we first see him because he's at the
00:39:52
tree. So I didn't see his.
00:39:54
I didn't. I saw his face, but I didn't
00:39:56
recognize him. The moment he opened his mouth,
00:40:00
I paused the tvi was like, is that Joey Pants on the screen?
00:40:03
Like what? Amazing actor.
00:40:06
Loved him for decades. But I was like, oh, OK, so he is
00:40:11
the mysterious Eugene. This is great.
00:40:14
And then when he showed the bite, I was like.
00:40:17
God damn cameos or. I know people were like
00:40:21
suspecting maybe he overheard, you know, them talking about her
00:40:25
being immune or maybe she got bit and we're not.
00:40:28
But no, he actually got bit. But The thing is, we knew that
00:40:34
that there was a lie involved. Yeah.
00:40:39
Yes, we knew there was some deception.
00:40:45
And you know it. It's interesting because this
00:40:48
takes place right around her. Her 19th birth.
00:40:53
Well, actually on her 19th birthday, her birthdays are so
00:40:56
eventful. I'm just like.
00:41:00
What a coincidence. The first, I mean, the first two
00:41:03
were good, yeah. I mean, she started out
00:41:04
eventful. So like literally I think in the
00:41:07
I. Think in the game they weren't
00:41:11
around her birthday. They they were just events that
00:41:13
were happening. OK, nothing for this episode.
00:41:16
Druckman decided to make them significant on her birthday.
00:41:21
Yeah, because I think some of the things kind of made more
00:41:25
impact that way, especially like the first 2 birthdays, just kind
00:41:29
of them celebrating a birthday the first time And then the next
00:41:33
year the the dinosaur. I was kind of shocked when I saw
00:41:37
the dinosaur. I was like, why is there a
00:41:39
dinosaur in the middle of the forest?
00:41:42
And then when you see that the museum is kind of behind it,
00:41:44
it's like, oh, OK, that that kind of makes more sense.
00:41:47
And of course, everything is so overgrown that may not have even
00:41:50
been a forest 20 something years ago.
00:41:53
It probably wasn't. So it.
00:41:55
Was a Plaza. Or something but her again, the
00:42:00
joy on her face when she sees the dinosaur when she climbs up
00:42:03
and she's like almost her going into the Science Museum, seeing
00:42:09
the orally and and it works because Joel bought to grease it
00:42:14
up before he brought her there. Her actually being able to see
00:42:18
the space shuttle and try on the the the astronaut helmet.
00:42:23
That whole scene had me so emotional because it's a scene
00:42:29
that you don't you don't think it's going to have that kind of
00:42:32
impact. You're like, oh, OK, she's just
00:42:34
going to get in the spaceship or whatever.
00:42:36
And then you remember that she's kind of obsessed with space.
00:42:39
She has been since the first season.
00:42:41
So the emotional impact of that is even more important.
00:42:46
And the fact that Joel went out, found that, kept it a secret,
00:42:51
did what he needed to do to make it great for her, found the tape
00:42:55
of the old Apollo 11 launch, you know, so that she could listen
00:42:59
to it. And then just that whole thing
00:43:03
of us being a part of Ellie's imagination while she imagined
00:43:07
going to space. I was just like, OK, I don't
00:43:11
know who wrote this episode. Give them an Emmy because wow,
00:43:16
the emotional impact in that scene was just great.
00:43:21
And you see her happier than we've ever seen her before.
00:43:25
And they're walking through the forest and she stops and she
00:43:27
looks at all of a sudden, her face changes, her body language
00:43:30
changes. And I was just like, what
00:43:34
happened? And you see fireflies?
00:43:36
And I was just like, oh, so this is when it started going
00:43:40
downhill because you see a market difference after that.
00:43:46
The next birthday is the 17th birthday.
00:43:49
This is when we find her making out with the girl who was the
00:43:53
patrol leader. I think her name was Cat.
00:43:56
Yep, cat OK. So we see her making out with
00:43:59
Cat, you know, Joe comes in, catches them.
00:44:02
We see the tattoo equipment because of apparently Cat does
00:44:05
tattoos. And that's when we learned that
00:44:08
Ellie had the moth tattoo over her arm.
00:44:11
They have their argument, you know, Joel is like, oh really?
00:44:15
All the teenage shit all at once.
00:44:16
I would be pissed too. Like good.
00:44:19
You can't give this to me in phases.
00:44:21
You got to give me everything at once.
00:44:24
Drug, sex and rock'n'roll. Like.
00:44:28
And then when she has that, that reaction to him when he was like
00:44:31
experimenting with with with girls and she was like, I wasn't
00:44:35
experimenting. It took him a minute for it to
00:44:37
click. And then he was like, you don't
00:44:41
mean that I'm going to come talk to you when when you're more
00:44:44
yourself. And she's just looking like,
00:44:47
fuck. And I think that's why Dina's
00:44:50
admission in the last episode kind of struck her a little bit
00:44:54
more too, because Dina said the same thing.
00:44:56
I told my mom I like boys and girls.
00:44:58
And she was like, no, you just like, you just like boys.
00:45:01
And she's looking like heard that before.
00:45:04
Yeah, well, it didn't help that he's from Texas, Sarah.
00:45:09
This is true and then also with the timeline there.
00:45:17
Well, in that universe, I should say, everything went to shit way
00:45:22
before a lot of the movements that we have here in this world.
00:45:27
Like when Ellie and Dena got to Seattle, she didn't know what a
00:45:30
pride for a flag was. She was like, what is that for?
00:45:34
Like, oh, OK. I guess they just had a lot of
00:45:36
hope, which technically speaking, yes, they do have
00:45:41
hope. Hope that they can, you know,
00:45:42
live their lives and be treated equally.
00:45:45
But she would not know that because that's not the world
00:45:49
that they had over there. But even before Cordyceps,
00:45:53
right? So it's not surprising that he
00:45:57
will still have a little bit of that reaction.
00:45:58
But I think even for parents who eventually come around, when you
00:46:03
first hear that, I think sometimes the reaction is shock
00:46:07
and denial because again, the way that we grew up, it was,
00:46:13
that's not right, that's not normal, that's strange,
00:46:15
whatever. So even if you're working on
00:46:18
changing your mindset about that I was this way, you know, it's
00:46:24
still a bit of a shock. And I think that's what he kind
00:46:28
of had to deal with. And then he tries to make up for
00:46:30
it later on in the episode when he asked her about Dina and she
00:46:34
was like, Nope, we're going to start this conversation because
00:46:37
you are not about to make me like you again.
00:46:39
You are an ass. Because he was OK with the.
00:46:45
And then she was like, you lied to me.
00:46:47
You look me dead in the eye and lied with that same face.
00:46:50
And I was like, oh. And he started, you can tell in
00:46:53
his eyes, he was starting to be like, oh, OK, we're about to
00:46:56
have this conversation and he's thinking it's about Eugene.
00:47:00
And then she was like, you fucking swore.
00:47:03
And he's like, oh shit, we're about to have that conversation
00:47:07
'cause he told her with Eugene, I promise.
00:47:10
When she asked him about the fireflies, he said, I swear.
00:47:14
So he's like, oh, I guess we don't have this conversation
00:47:17
now, but GAIL, even before Eugene, she was a bit snippy.
00:47:29
But but I guess if if I was sitting in a Cafe, sitting
00:47:34
having breakfast, reading a book, obviously not wanting to
00:47:38
talk to somebody for somebody, just come sit at the table and
00:47:40
start asking me questions. I'd I'd be the same way too.
00:47:43
She was like, do I look like I have a The doctor is inside like
00:47:47
Lucy from the. Yeah, she's she, is she?
00:47:55
I like her. And I totally understand she is.
00:47:58
Because yeah, this, because I'm a therapist, don't mean I'm
00:48:02
always working, right? Yeah, it doesn't mean that.
00:48:06
Like, we have office hours too, even in a global apocalypse,
00:48:11
whatever you want to call it. Like, don't, don't be
00:48:14
disrespectful. But he finds out the.
00:48:16
Book she The book she was reading was about a guy trying
00:48:19
to survive when the virus had wiped out everybody.
00:48:23
Oh, I see. Yeah.
00:48:26
What was the name of the book 'cause I I?
00:48:28
I can't remember what. Attention.
00:48:30
I can't remember right off the top of my head.
00:48:33
Yeah, I looked it up real quick. Yeah, but he did get some
00:48:37
interesting information from her, which I think kind of
00:48:41
helped him deal with Ellie later on, you know?
00:48:45
But yeah, like he he thought the moths were like butterflies.
00:48:49
If they represent change, he's like no death.
00:48:52
I wore my butterfly earrings on purpose.
00:48:54
I was like, well, I don't have moth earrings and I don't think
00:48:56
I would wear them, so I'm being nice.
00:48:58
Yeah, I was like, did did he not watch shines of lambs?
00:49:01
Did he not know that moths represent death?
00:49:06
Who knows, maybe he did and he just didn't.
00:49:10
No, he he didn't He, he. Wasn't thinking about it.
00:49:13
He was. He was thinking.
00:49:14
He was with a parental existential crisis, like, oh, my
00:49:18
God, I came in the room and my daughter is making out with
00:49:21
another girl, and she's smoking pot and she got a tattoo and
00:49:24
she's only 7. Those are the kind of things he
00:49:27
was thinking of. He wasn't thinking that deep.
00:49:29
Yeah. Yeah, he he misunderstood that.
00:49:32
He was thinking that she was changing, that she wasn't
00:49:35
changing, she just feed out what she was.
00:49:38
It's not the same thing. Right.
00:49:41
Yeah. It's just that I, I think that
00:49:45
was when he first started looking at it differently
00:49:47
because he's like, oh, OK. I've been, I guess in a way I've
00:49:50
been trying to make her into this, this person or this thing,
00:49:55
you know, like to I, I won't say replace his daughter, but just
00:49:59
to kind of fill that void for him.
00:50:02
And she has her own things going on and she has her own way that
00:50:05
she wants to do things and live her life.
00:50:07
And she may not always want to spend.
00:50:10
And we know that she may not always want to spend her
00:50:12
birthdays with you and only you and she, you know, branching out
00:50:16
a little bit. And I think that was him trying
00:50:19
to say, oh, OK, I need to, I need to figure out how to do
00:50:23
this thing. Because again, like he said in
00:50:25
what couple episodes ago, he didn't get a chance to do this
00:50:28
with his daughter. So he's learning.
00:50:32
But you you see that in the episode because when she's
00:50:34
trying to move that mattress out, which I was like, come on,
00:50:37
Ellie, it's raining outside. Why would you take a mattress
00:50:40
out and try to go into that nasty, stanky garage?
00:50:43
Like, why? I understand you're mad, but
00:50:45
whatever. But when he goes in there to to
00:50:49
help her and he was like, look, so we're gonna have this
00:50:52
conversation with this is my house.
00:50:53
And she was like, this is not your house.
00:50:55
This is the house they gave you or they gave us.
00:50:57
You don't own anything. And I think she realized that
00:51:00
kind of hit him a little harder than she thought because then
00:51:04
she does apologize him. She was like, I'm sorry, I
00:51:07
smoked pot and was making out with the girl and, you know, got
00:51:10
a tattoo. Or rather she said, I'm, I'm
00:51:13
sorry I got a tattoo and smoked pot and was making out with a
00:51:17
girl. Except I'm not.
00:51:20
And I think that's when he was like, OK, you can go stay in the
00:51:24
garage. I need some time to process all
00:51:27
of this, but at least let me make it nice for you.
00:51:30
And then you see them kind. Of because he's has no heat, he
00:51:33
has. No, no water.
00:51:34
He's like, why did you want to go in there?
00:51:36
But he understood her need for space.
00:51:38
And then again, like I said, he has to learn how to do things
00:51:43
with her because one, that isn't his daughter.
00:51:47
And two, I think a lot of the stuff that he was doing, even
00:51:51
though, yes, he was doing it because he loves her, I think he
00:51:53
was also doing it out of a sense of guilt, especially once he
00:51:57
found out what the moths mean. Because he's like, OK, this
00:52:02
might be kind of my fault that she's going through this because
00:52:05
she thought she was gonna do one thing and that's all she's ever
00:52:11
thought her whole life. And it's kind of like, it's kind
00:52:16
of like people who get sick and they think they're dying and
00:52:20
then all of a sudden something happens or, you know, you're on
00:52:24
the transplant list, you think you're not going to make it, and
00:52:26
then here comes the transplant. You have a new lease on life.
00:52:29
And now you have to figure out what to do with this life that
00:52:32
you didn't think you were going to be here to experience.
00:52:35
And it's hard enough doing it again in the real world with all
00:52:39
of our resources and our technologies and our luxuries.
00:52:43
She doesn't have any of that in that world.
00:52:46
It's just constant trying to constantly trying to survive.
00:52:52
And now you got to figure out, OK, so if I'm not going to save
00:52:55
the world, what is what is my purpose?
00:52:57
Like you said, what is my purpose here?
00:52:59
What am I doing here? She's got to have time to figure
00:53:03
that out. He he's got to give it a little
00:53:06
space, which he did. But then when we see her on our
00:53:10
19th birthday, she's sitting there on the bed in said garage
00:53:14
and she's practicing questions that she has for him.
00:53:18
Yeah, plot holes. Well, I well, yeah, yeah.
00:53:26
Because she was like, OK, so. His his story has his story has
00:53:30
plot holes. Well, I mean, yeah, because
00:53:34
she's like, if the Fireflies saw us a mile away from the
00:53:37
hospital, how did the whole gang of Raiders sneak up on them?
00:53:43
I was like, oh, she's going like, she's gonna hit him with
00:53:46
the one too. Like there is no leaning into
00:53:49
this. We're going all the way.
00:53:50
OK. She was like, second, if the
00:53:54
Raiders were killing everyone, including Marlene, and you just
00:54:00
barely got me out of the out of the building.
00:54:03
Like, how did how did we survive?
00:54:07
So yeah. And then the third one was, if
00:54:10
there, I think she was getting ready to ask if there were other
00:54:14
infect, other immune people. Why haven't we heard about
00:54:19
anybody else since then? But he knocked on the door and
00:54:23
interrupted her train of thought before she could do that.
00:54:27
But I was like, oh, she was really about to get into him.
00:54:36
And then all the stuff happens with Eugene.
00:54:39
Eugene gets bit, he convinces or he he tries to convince them,
00:54:44
hey, let me just go back home. Let me say my goodbyes to GAIL
00:54:48
and then we can do what we need to do.
00:54:50
But I still have a little time. And when he sends Ellie to go
00:54:53
get the horses, she stops because she was like, hmm,
00:54:58
something about this ain't right.
00:55:01
And he's like, I promise. She turned around.
00:55:04
She looked at him. She's like, OK, she goes to get
00:55:07
the horses. And then of course, as they're
00:55:09
as, as he and Eugene are walking, I think I'm kind of,
00:55:17
yeah, I'm kind of split because I feel like maybe he thought
00:55:25
about it and that would have been the the quote UN quote soft
00:55:28
part of him. Like, OK, maybe he does have
00:55:30
time, maybe we can let him go. And then I think when they got
00:55:35
down there and he started talking, he was like who the
00:55:39
cortisols makes you cold? I I wasn't expecting this.
00:55:42
I think he started realizing this was advancing and they
00:55:47
might not make it back to Jackson.
00:55:49
And then when he came, he. Didn't want to take that.
00:55:50
He didn't want to take that chance.
00:55:52
He didn't want to take that risk.
00:55:53
And it was, it was, it was escalated because when he got
00:55:57
there, he was like, which way? And I'm thinking Joel is
00:56:01
thinking you patrol this area, you should know which way to go
00:56:04
first. Of all, they have protocols.
00:56:10
There's a reason for protocols. That's why Jackson is still
00:56:14
around. Right.
00:56:17
And that's why this is not something they need to be
00:56:19
dealing with in her first patrol.
00:56:22
Joseph just shot him right then and not have negotiated with her
00:56:25
and be like, dude, this is a protocol.
00:56:29
You know what I'm saying? Like this because there's going
00:56:31
to be a point where she's going to be on patrol with somebody
00:56:35
else and that happens as well. We can get you back in time.
00:56:38
No. Yeah.
00:56:39
No, we don't do it at all. Yeah, if that had been at all,
00:56:44
if that had been Tommy, if that had been Jesse, they probably
00:56:49
would have been like, no, this is what we do.
00:56:52
Cause. 'Cause like you say.
00:56:54
Yeah, if, oh, if he was with, if he was with anyone else except
00:56:57
for Ellie, Eugene would have been shot on the spot.
00:56:59
Yeah, that's true too. Yeah.
00:57:06
But then when he does take Eugene, he takes them to a
00:57:10
little clearing where you have view of the the lake and view of
00:57:14
the mountains. I was like, OK, if this is where
00:57:17
you have to die, you can't pick a better view one.
00:57:22
But also once, I think once Eugene realized what Joe had
00:57:27
intended to do, that Joe had intended to to kill him.
00:57:31
When he took his glasses off, he kind of looked and it was only
00:57:39
in the eyes. His eyes changed twice.
00:57:43
And I was like, are they about to show us him getting taken
00:57:48
over by the Cordyceps? And that's why Joe had to shoot
00:57:51
him. And I was like, after I went
00:57:53
back and watched it the second time I said no.
00:57:55
I said, this was him kind of being angry.
00:57:59
Then this was him kind of being sad, and then it was him.
00:58:04
OK, I see her. Let's do.
00:58:06
That Yeah. Because Joel told him if you
00:58:08
truly love someone, you you'll see their face.
00:58:12
You can see their face. Yeah.
00:58:14
Yeah. And then Ellie comes and the
00:58:19
look on her face when they were going back, she was so angry.
00:58:24
And he was just talking to her. He was like, you know, we'll,
00:58:28
we'll, we'll tell GAIL, you know, a little, a little bit.
00:58:32
We, we, we won't tell her the full thing, you know, we'll just
00:58:35
tell her the basics. But before we get there, before
00:58:39
we get there, shout out to Joey Pants because the micro
00:58:43
expression in his changes that we noticed, this shows you how
00:58:48
great of an actor he is. There's a little bit of time
00:58:51
that we got Eugene. This is a little bit of time.
00:58:55
He gave us so much in that, that 3-4 minutes of screen time, if
00:59:01
that. Yeah, he gave us a lot, yeah.
00:59:04
And like, I have him on screen now.
00:59:07
You can just see all the little shifts he makes.
00:59:11
That's why I said I thought he was.
00:59:12
Actually good, yeah. Yeah, but when Joel is trying to
00:59:19
tell her, yeah, we'll just tell GAIL this, We'll, you know,
00:59:22
we'll we'll keep it simple. We won't give her all the
00:59:24
details. She doesn't need to see that.
00:59:26
And blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
00:59:27
You can see her face getting more and more angry because she
00:59:31
realizes this is how he handled her.
00:59:35
Like this is when it's really clicking to her.
00:59:38
Oh yeah, that motherfucker lied to me.
00:59:40
He absolutely lied to me and he and he went on with his life
00:59:44
because he's literally telling me how to do it now.
00:59:49
So when they get there to Jackson and GAIL is there and
00:59:53
Joel is giving her his spill. Yeah, he was bit when we found
00:59:57
him, blah, blah, blah. He wanted to see you one last
00:59:59
time, tell you he loved you. I was like, OK, we can go along
01:00:04
with that cause none of that was wrong.
01:00:07
It was when he said. He did it himself, I said.
01:00:12
Yeah, I don't know. Why did he say that?
01:00:14
Like, why didn't you do that, bro?
01:00:16
I know you don't want to be the one who shot the bullet, but
01:00:19
like. And she would have understood
01:00:21
that more. Because that's what they do.
01:00:24
That's what they do. Yeah, and she's a, and she's a
01:00:27
therapist. Like she might have been angry,
01:00:28
but I think she would have thought about it later and be
01:00:32
like, OK, you know what? That was the logical thing to do
01:00:35
because he could have turned even if they said or even if
01:00:39
they tied him up like Ellie suggested.
01:00:41
If if he's strong, you know, a lot of times when we see these
01:00:45
people who turn into monsters, they're the strongest when they
01:00:49
first turn, 'cause they still got, they still got a little
01:00:53
blood flow, they still got a little adrenaline.
01:00:56
He could have broken out and infected everybody there.
01:01:00
She would have understood that. But the moment he said he did it
01:01:04
himself, I just hung my head and I paused.
01:01:06
My tvi said OK, shit's about to hit the fat.
01:01:11
I was not expecting Ellie to do what she did and tell GAIL and
01:01:16
Tommy exactly what happened. But you remember when they were
01:01:22
in the previous episode? GAIL said.
01:01:24
I understood why you did what you did.
01:01:28
Yeah, I know it had to be done. That still doesn't mean I have
01:01:31
to like you. Yeah, and she said, I just don't
01:01:34
like the way you did it. And that didn't necessarily mean
01:01:37
the way that you killed him. It was the way you tried to
01:01:39
deflect and lie. And see that he did it himself.
01:01:44
Yeah, but when when she, I mean, she literally lays it out.
01:01:49
She was like, oh, he's lying. That's not how it happened.
01:01:53
He wanted to come back and see you.
01:01:54
He still had time, but Joe shot him in the head.
01:01:57
And then when she looked at him and she said, you swore, his
01:02:00
face changed because he was like, oh, she's not talking
01:02:03
about this. I think that's when he realized,
01:02:05
oh, she she understands what I did.
01:02:09
Like damn. Let's just take a moment and
01:02:13
reflect that he was unarmed and he killed 19 Fireflies who were
01:02:20
armed. Let let's just take a moment to
01:02:24
appreciate that. I mean, we did that last season
01:02:27
too. We were like, he wasn't one man
01:02:29
army. He wasn't a group of Raiders.
01:02:31
That's believable. One man for real.
01:02:35
For real. Yeah, yeah.
01:02:39
So, so again, I understand. I understand what you are saying
01:02:45
about seeing him in this kind of lesson state.
01:02:51
I guess in a way, you know, just kind of more vulnerable, more
01:02:55
compassionate, more I, I wouldn't even go so far as to
01:03:01
say more human instead of being this kind of, you know, blocked
01:03:05
off machine. OK, this is what I do.
01:03:08
This is how I do it, that sort of thing.
01:03:10
I get it. I do understand it, but I like
01:03:13
seeing the the back and forth with him as well.
01:03:18
This isn't even the same Joel who was telling Maria that we
01:03:23
can't keep taking people in. You know, we just can't do it.
01:03:29
It's not, this is not the same Joel.
01:03:32
I mean, that Joel, that Joel was literally looking at numbers and
01:03:37
saying we can't keep letting people in.
01:03:38
Then what are they going to do? They just had to stand out there
01:03:41
and die. But that could, but that could
01:03:43
be part of it too, because if you think about this, that
01:03:46
conversation he had with Maria that took place nine months
01:03:49
after what happened with Eugene and with Ellie finding out.
01:03:55
So maybe he took that harder stance because of the way that
01:03:58
those two things affected him. You know, maybe he.
01:04:01
Like he went back, he. He went back to being hard ass
01:04:05
Joe. Yeah, like, OK, you know what?
01:04:08
She don't want to talk to me. I don't have a reason to show
01:04:12
this side to anyone anymore. So let me just be about business
01:04:16
as usual because she was already living in the garage.
01:04:20
It was very obvious from the first episode of this season
01:04:24
that things were incredibly strained, strained between them.
01:04:29
And then again, what happened at the dance New Year's Eve, and
01:04:32
then what happened afterwards? We only saw her walk past the
01:04:36
house. Like, I don't want to talk to
01:04:38
you. And that's all we knew that
01:04:39
happened up until this episode. But then she you know, we do see
01:04:44
a a recreation of that scene. He's there on the porch playing
01:04:47
the guitar. She she comes walks past them
01:04:54
and then she walks back on the porch and he just kind of looks
01:04:58
and he puts the guitar down and goes to stand up next to her.
01:05:01
They have the conversation about coffee.
01:05:03
I was like, yeah, he really did love coffee.
01:05:05
Did he she? Did.
01:05:08
But then they start having the conversation, one about Seth
01:05:13
because this, you know, again, this is right after the whole
01:05:15
Seth incident. And then she talks to him and
01:05:23
says about, you know, you're a fucking asshole.
01:05:26
You lied to me and you looked me dead in my eye with that same
01:05:29
face. And you lied.
01:05:31
And she was like, look, you're gonna tell me what happened with
01:05:35
the Fireflies. And if you lie to me, that'll
01:05:37
be, that'll be it for us. That's the end of us.
01:05:41
And he looks so scared. And I don't think it was that
01:05:46
because he was going to have to tell her.
01:05:47
I think he was more scared of what her reaction was going to
01:05:50
be because he knew it was going to be volatile, or at least
01:05:53
that's what we thought. I think that it was a fear of
01:05:57
losing her that that was looming over him.
01:06:01
Yeah. Like he can stand her hating him
01:06:04
and walking around and giving him the cold shoulder, but I
01:06:08
don't think he can take losing her.
01:06:10
Like her being completely out of his life.
01:06:12
Really out of his life. Yeah, yeah, but she does ask the
01:06:17
question. She was like, so about them
01:06:22
fireflies. So did did did Raiders come?
01:06:29
And he looked at her for a long time before he answered.
01:06:33
Shake his head no. He didn't say the words this
01:06:37
shake his head though. Shake his head.
01:06:41
Then what else did she say? She she asked about the Raiders,
01:06:44
she asked about whether or not there were any more immune Then
01:06:50
she asked him whether or not they would have been able to
01:06:53
make make a cure. And again he hesitated before he
01:06:56
nodded yes. And I was like, he should have
01:06:59
told her maybe. But I, I think at this point he
01:07:02
was like, OK, you know what? There's no mincing words.
01:07:05
If she believes that there was a cure, OK, there was a cure.
01:07:09
Because at this point, it's not going to matter either way.
01:07:12
He did what he did and, and lied to her.
01:07:14
I think she would have, I think she would have even gotten over
01:07:17
it back then if he had not lied to her.
01:07:21
I think that was the biggest betrayal.
01:07:23
But then when she said so did you.
01:07:26
And she didn't even have to finish the the the question
01:07:29
because he knew she was asking. Did you kill everyone?
01:07:32
Yes. He's nodded head and Marlene.
01:07:36
And then he opens his mouth. Making a cure would have killed
01:07:41
you. And she was like, then I was
01:07:43
supposed to die, but you took that away from me.
01:07:46
You took that away from everyone.
01:07:48
He was like, yeah, you know, I had a choice to do that.
01:07:54
He was like, I'd do it again. As a father would say, yeah and.
01:08:00
She was like, you're selfish. He was like, because I love you.
01:08:03
And I would have been like, yeah, that's being selfish,
01:08:06
being selfish. Again, why should I have to give
01:08:08
up my child to save the rest of the world?
01:08:11
Like I understand the the ethical choice in that, but
01:08:18
again, as a parent, I'm not sacrificing my children for
01:08:21
y'all. No, what the fuck no.
01:08:26
No emotions, always. Emotions can almost always
01:08:31
override rational thought, especially if you're a parent.
01:08:36
Yeah. How many parents do stupid stuff
01:08:41
because of their child? Yeah.
01:08:43
Going up in the schools and trying to beat up on children,
01:08:45
bullying their kids, going on buses, pulling kids off buses
01:08:50
because they bullying their kid. Parents, We are emotional and
01:08:55
sometimes. Don't make the best decisions.
01:08:59
One time my child got in the car after dance and she was upset
01:09:02
because the the dance teacher he had went off on her about
01:09:08
something. I was like, what do you say?
01:09:10
I was really get out that car. She she stopped crying.
01:09:12
Oh, no, no, it's fine. It's fine.
01:09:14
You don't have to go. I was like, no, what?
01:09:16
What do you say to you again? I turned around, went back to
01:09:21
the dance studio. I was really get out the car.
01:09:24
What was I thinking? Yeah.
01:09:26
What? What we doing?
01:09:28
What we doing? Yeah.
01:09:31
So, yeah, he's he's he's totally right.
01:09:34
I mean, we can debate whether or not he should have done it, but
01:09:39
you can't deny the fact that this to him is his child and
01:09:43
he's not going to sit here and let her die whether it would
01:09:46
save everybody or not. And I think again, that's a
01:09:52
realization for Ellie because yeah, she could have been, she
01:09:56
could have been mad. She could have.
01:09:57
And and he told her, he said, I know I'm going to lose you
01:10:02
buying this, but I would make the same choice because, like
01:10:07
you said, if if she got to be walking around mad at him, at
01:10:12
least she's alive, you know, and I think he can deal with that
01:10:17
better than he could the fact of not ever seen her again,
01:10:21
especially again, she didn't she didn't have a choice.
01:10:23
They didn't even present it to her as OK, So this is what we
01:10:27
have to do to save people. Are you OK with doing this?
01:10:32
They. They.
01:10:32
Need for the choice. And, and from his perspective,
01:10:37
his his daughter died in his arms and he couldn't do anything
01:10:42
about it. This one he can do.
01:10:46
He could do something about and he did.
01:10:49
Yeah. Yeah, for some reason it makes
01:10:52
me think of Spider Man, the way home and how Andrew Garfield,
01:10:57
Spider Man couldn't save Gwen, but he could save you, MJ.
01:11:01
MJ yeah, you know, second, second chances, man.
01:11:05
Second chances. You get you get a chance to do
01:11:08
it differently. You get a chance to maybe make a
01:11:11
difference. And again, for for a kid who has
01:11:16
grown up her whole life being told that, oh, you're humanity's
01:11:21
last chance, oh, you can make a cure or this is your destiny,
01:11:24
this is your purpose. And y'all not putting anything
01:11:27
else on this child, y'all not giving this child any other kind
01:11:30
of love, any other kind of whatever.
01:11:34
I think that probably made an impression on her when he was
01:11:39
like, yeah, I know it's wrong maybe, but I'll do it again.
01:11:42
I would I would do it again. No hesitation.
01:11:46
Like this is someone who loves you that much that they are
01:11:49
willing to let the world burn just to see you safe.
01:11:58
I think that's why she told him she was willing to try to
01:12:01
forgive him because this for, for this man to go from, oh,
01:12:07
your cargo, I don't give a fuck about you to Oh yes, I killed 19
01:12:12
people, including a Doctor Who could cure this thing to make
01:12:16
sure that you're alive. She may not understand it.
01:12:20
She doesn't have to understand it, but you can't deny how
01:12:28
massive that confession is and what it means then to have that
01:12:37
taken away from her the next day.
01:12:44
And then, of course, the episode ends with her walking back to
01:12:47
the theater. I was like, yeah, she killed
01:12:49
her. She killed Nora and she's coming
01:12:52
back. Nora was dead.
01:12:54
I know, I know, I know. Yeah.
01:12:58
Anyway, she was dead, but I think she she made it a lot
01:13:03
worse. The Walking Dead.
01:13:07
She ain't walking nowhere. What Ellie did, she's not
01:13:11
walking anywhere. She's gonna be sitting in this
01:13:14
that spot until she's 90. She she can't go anywhere.
01:13:20
But again, like I said, I I love this episode.
01:13:25
This was probably one of my favorite episodes like ever.
01:13:32
Definitely top tier for this particular show.
01:13:36
I just. Yeah, I can say top tier too.
01:13:38
But to be honest with you, I don't really think it's seeing
01:13:41
the whole lot at this point. I mean, we made it through this
01:13:45
whole season and we got to see revenge Ellie for 5 minutes.
01:13:53
Well, we still have the next episode, so and.
01:13:56
Then we going to go a whole season without seeing her so.
01:14:03
I don't know how that's going to go because far as I know they
01:14:10
have not been renewed for season 4.
01:14:12
Or wait or did they wait a minute, wait a minute.
01:14:14
I'm trying to remember 'cause we, we've covered a lot of shows
01:14:19
in the last year that are either in renewal limbo or they're
01:14:24
getting renewed like in advance. So I I don't remember if they're
01:14:33
going past season 3. I know they have season 3 now,
01:14:39
dude. I don't know if they're going to
01:14:40
have the season 4. It would depend on whether or
01:14:43
not they have the season 4. Because if they have a season 4,
01:14:47
we're we'll, we'll see Ellie bits and pieces, yeah, but we
01:14:52
really won't see her until 4:00. It'll it'll be mostly Abby's
01:14:55
story for season 3, OK. OK, now if there's No 4, we'll
01:14:59
get Abby most of the season and then we get the climax of the
01:15:04
two of them at the end of the season.
01:15:06
OK, OK yeah, But I I like seeing childish Ellie because I feel
01:15:15
like that's something she's never been able to explore.
01:15:19
So it's like when she was looking at the dinosaur when she
01:15:22
was in the space caps capsule, the looks on her face, like the
01:15:26
goofy look she had on her face when she did the helmet.
01:15:30
I thought it was cute. And I'm I'm gonna say this.
01:15:35
I am so, so sick of the dialogue online talking about Bella
01:15:44
Ramsey's acting, talking, talking about her looks and how
01:15:47
she doesn't look like the video game character.
01:15:49
And people are saying such nasty things about this girl and I'm
01:15:54
so fucking sick of it. I'm like, she looks the way
01:16:01
she's supposed to look. OK, because this is again, this
01:16:05
is a world that doesn't have all of the stuff that we have.
01:16:10
And I feel like a lot of people are saying, you know, people who
01:16:13
are on there like, oh, she's not pretty enough for whatever.
01:16:15
She's living in a fucking apocalypse.
01:16:18
So no, she's not going to be glammed out.
01:16:19
She's not going to be make up out, she's not going to be
01:16:21
wearing, you know, she's not going to be wearing body shapers
01:16:24
and fake eyelashes and plump. And that's what I feel like
01:16:28
people are people are expecting like y'all want her to be
01:16:31
glammed up. And no, that's not the point of
01:16:35
the story. She's a regular kid who is
01:16:39
trying to find her way in this world after her destiny.
01:16:43
Whatever has been taken from her, what are y'all expecting
01:16:47
her to do? Like I just I don't understand.
01:16:49
Like she's playing a kid who is grown up way before she should
01:16:53
have. And now as a 19 year old, she's
01:16:56
going back and experiencing things that most of us
01:17:01
experienced in our childhood and she has the childlike wonder and
01:17:05
I just I don't understand that the hate 1st on.
01:17:10
The show, first we have to remember that a lot of these
01:17:12
people are grifters, that most of them, they're only doing the
01:17:16
negative things because that's what gives engaged man clicks
01:17:20
and gives the money. That's number one.
01:17:23
Number two, yeah, it is true that even the game, well, when
01:17:28
we have the gamers on, they'll tell you that.
01:17:31
I don't know. I don't know they made because I
01:17:34
think they actually liked it, but there's some, there are a
01:17:36
lot of people who played the games who didn't like The Last
01:17:39
of Us Part 2 because of some of the choices they've made.
01:17:43
OK, so that that is a thing. And even back then people
01:17:49
complained about it, but it was on a smaller scale.
01:17:52
OK, But we live in an age now where you know, after seeing the
01:17:55
Acolyte and all the MCU stuff, where negativity drives
01:18:03
engagement. And I'm so sick of that trend.
01:18:07
I'm there are a lot of people out there that that's what they
01:18:10
do. That's how they're making their
01:18:11
money. They're creating these
01:18:14
situations where it's just negative engagement and that's
01:18:17
what gets the money. That's what gets some views.
01:18:20
That's what gives them attention and clicks.
01:18:23
And they're like people have been exposed to don't have any.
01:18:27
They don't even watch the show and they complain about the show
01:18:31
and they talk about all the stuff that's wrong with the
01:18:34
show. They haven't played the game.
01:18:36
They don't watch the show, but they get millions of views and
01:18:39
clicks because it's negative engagement.
01:18:43
And it's sad that we live in a time where, you know, we could
01:18:47
have we did the thing. The most negative thing we did
01:18:50
was the stand and and that was genuinely because we didn't, we
01:18:56
genuinely had problems with it, but.
01:18:58
We had problems with the story I.
01:19:00
But we didn't make stuff up, you know what I'm saying?
01:19:03
Yeah, I don't. I don't understand people who
01:19:05
are attacking the real life person just because they're not
01:19:10
what you had in your mind. Get over it.
01:19:13
No, some of them are doing it just because.
01:19:15
Just because it's the thing to do, they probably don't care one
01:19:20
way or another. Because everyone loved her as
01:19:22
late as as from Game of Thrones. Well, everybody loved her and.
01:19:28
And she's gotten raised in some of for some of the other work
01:19:31
that she has done. Yeah, I don't even think she's
01:19:35
bad. I mean, she's and, and most of
01:19:39
the stuff that's going on with her in the show is not really
01:19:42
her acting. It's the directing and some of
01:19:45
the writing. It's not her.
01:19:47
She's doing what she's supposed to do based on how she's being
01:19:50
directed. But also it's the story.
01:19:53
This is, this is a girl who is not supposed to 1.
01:19:57
She's not well adjusted and not supposed to be acting well
01:20:00
adjusted. She's not well socialized and
01:20:04
it's not supposed to be acting well socialized.
01:20:07
And we see that when she interacts with certain people,
01:20:10
like she's OK with Joel, she's OK with Dina, she's OK with
01:20:12
Tommy, but with everybody else, she's very awkward.
01:20:16
That's what her character is supposed.
01:20:17
To be. But it's the personal attacks,
01:20:19
like calling her ugly and saying that she can't act.
01:20:23
I think a lot of that stuff bothers me.
01:20:26
It does. The best, the the best criticism
01:20:29
is about the character itself is like, oh, well, she spent all
01:20:33
the time with Joel, you know, he taught her a lot of stuff.
01:20:36
You don't think she should know how to triangulate singles after
01:20:42
being around Joel, who basically build a radio?
01:20:46
Come on, guys. Some of the stuff that she can't
01:20:49
read a map. You can tell me she didn't spend
01:20:51
all this time with this man and he didn't teach her how to read
01:20:54
a map. You know what I'm saying?
01:20:57
That that that that's the part that if you're going to, and I
01:21:00
went through this with the Acolyte, there are things you
01:21:03
can legitimately criticize. You don't have to call her ugly
01:21:08
because that doesn't have anything to do with the show,
01:21:10
No. No, and that's personal
01:21:13
preference too because I think she's a cute kid.
01:21:16
I say kid because she's younger than my children but I mean
01:21:19
she's a cute kid. Like what are y'all expecting?
01:21:24
I just, it just it's it's so tiring.
01:21:27
It's like literally, I try to ignore all that, but it's so
01:21:30
much of it in my feet. And a.
01:21:32
Lot of it is coming from grown men.
01:21:36
Grown, I know. Cisgender white males.
01:21:41
I'm. I'm gonna say it.
01:21:43
Sick of it I'm. Gonna say it.
01:21:45
I'm so sick of it. I really am.
01:21:47
So I just, I just wanted to say that because it's just I, I
01:21:52
think she's one of the better young actresses out there and I
01:21:58
think she's doing a great job. And I'm just like I.
01:22:00
I just, I don't understand the hate.
01:22:01
I would even say, you know, because my child is taking AP,
01:22:07
she was taking AP language artist and she was talking about
01:22:15
arguing and debating. And we talked about the
01:22:18
different kinds of debates you can have or whatever.
01:22:20
And the weakest, one of the weakest forms is ad hominem when
01:22:26
you attack a person in a debate, when you start attacking them.
01:22:30
So to me it's like that if if that is the best you can do as
01:22:35
your criticism of the show is talking about Billy Ramsey not
01:22:39
being able to act and how ugly she is now.
01:22:42
She doesn't look like the character from the show.
01:22:44
If that's all you got, then why am I listening to you like you
01:22:49
don't have any legitimate criticism about the show, about
01:22:54
the writing, about the directing?
01:22:56
Right. But you want to call her ugly?
01:22:59
You can just spend 30 minutes of your 45 minute podcast talking
01:23:02
about Billy Ramsey. Well, you know.
01:23:05
I I saw. It's crazy.
01:23:08
I saw a comment somewhere it says This is why everybody
01:23:11
doesn't need a mic. True, you know, or This is why
01:23:17
everybody doesn't need a blog or I mean, I get it, freedom of
01:23:21
speech, that sort of thing, but it's just it's so old.
01:23:24
It's so. It is old and we we spent all
01:23:27
this time you showed, they showed the true colors with
01:23:31
Acolyte because you didn't want to compare.
01:23:34
No, no, no, let's let's let's go back a little bit further.
01:23:37
Let's talk about Rose on in Star Wars or.
01:23:42
Or. Or we can go a little bit far.
01:23:45
It's just, but they've been like unusually cruel with this one
01:23:51
and I'm about sick of it. I'm I'm so sick of it.
01:23:54
Yeah. And it's like, it's like the
01:23:55
most more popular something is, the easier it is for them to do.
01:24:00
I mean, even when they switched Splash Mountain to Tiana's,
01:24:04
whatever it is in this world, and they came out of the
01:24:08
woodwork to talk about how Disney became a world.
01:24:11
Oh, so you really wanted to hold on to the racist ride that
01:24:14
that's what you really wanted. You want everyone to go And
01:24:17
this, you know, let's relate this all to the largest
01:24:20
plantation house burning down to the ground.
01:24:24
Oh, no. Where are they going to have
01:24:26
their weddings and receptions? Oh, really?
01:24:30
At the place that was literally built by slaves with a man who
01:24:34
took 200 of his slaves and left his wife at the plantation by
01:24:39
herself because he didn't want to fight in the Civil War.
01:24:42
He he sent his three sons off to die because he didn't want to.
01:24:46
Come on, guys. Yeah.
01:24:48
Come on. Yeah.
01:24:49
Let's let's not hold on to this this sometimes.
01:24:54
But you know what sometimes like in sinners when they talked
01:25:02
about. We just go all over the place
01:25:03
today, hey? Look, Chicago is just, they just
01:25:08
changed the tall buildings, plantations, right?
01:25:12
So we just came back because the devil you know.
01:25:15
Yeah, better the devil you know. Better the devil you know.
01:25:19
And so guess what guys? Y'all keep showing y'all asses,
01:25:23
showing y'all faces, showing us who y'all really are.
01:25:27
So we know who you are, we know what you believe in.
01:25:30
We know. We know whose side you want.
01:25:33
So if you want, if this is how you want to make your money,
01:25:36
just remember if you lie in bed with dogs, you're going to get
01:25:40
fleas. Yeah, I love that.
01:25:45
But all all that to say, there will be no.
01:25:48
I'm sorry, I, I, I'm putting, I'm putting my soapbox away.
01:25:51
That's OK. I I was going to say just all
01:25:53
all that to say, there will be no Bella Ramsey hate on this
01:25:56
side. Like we can talk about the story
01:25:58
all we want. We can hate the story if we
01:26:01
don't like it. But yeah, I'm, I'm just, I'm
01:26:05
really getting sick of seeing people just be so negative.
01:26:09
And I just, I had to say something about it because it's
01:26:11
too much of it out there right now.
01:26:13
Even the other stuff with, you know, people like, oh, Pedro
01:26:16
Pascal, I'm so sick of seeing him and everything.
01:26:18
Then get you some quality actors to put in some shit.
01:26:23
That's just how I feel about it. But anyway, I'll, we, we went
01:26:27
off into the weeds. I'd, I'd like I said, I just had
01:26:30
to, I had to mention that because it's really been pissing
01:26:33
me off. But going back to the episode
01:26:37
again, one of my favorite episodes, I loved it.
01:26:40
I loved seeing the emotional highs and the emotional lows and
01:26:44
everything in between. You know, seeing Joe get to be a
01:26:49
dad and I I guess a little bit more detail because we didn't
01:26:52
really get that much time with him and Sarah just being normal
01:26:56
because literally when we're introduced to them, it's the
01:26:59
morning of when everything goes to shit.
01:27:04
And of course she ends up dying later on that night because he's
01:27:07
trying, they're trying to escape.
01:27:08
So I. Luckily he forgot.
01:27:10
Luckily he forgot to pick up a cake because they'd both be
01:27:14
dead. Luckily.
01:27:17
Yeah. The saying, I'm just throwing it
01:27:19
out there. Yeah, that's that's true.
01:27:24
But yeah, I, I like seeing him be a dad and I like getting the
01:27:32
back story because again, I was like, I need to know how she
01:27:35
found out. I need to know that story 'cause
01:27:38
I, I needed to understand the rift between them.
01:27:42
And now I feel like if I go back and rewatch the the earlier
01:27:51
season 2 episodes, I feel like I might look at them in a
01:27:54
different light or look at her in a different light.
01:27:56
Because now I have this last conversation to keep in mind.
01:28:00
Because even when she talked to GAIL in the hospital and GAIL
01:28:03
was like, so you guys had a, you guys had a little tiff at the
01:28:07
dance. Was that the last time you
01:28:09
talked to him? And remember, she was, she was
01:28:11
on the hospital bed. She was like, Yep.
01:28:14
And I was like, oh, OK, So that's why she's feeling that.
01:28:17
What? No, she's she again, she's
01:28:20
keeping certain things to herself.
01:28:23
She had, she went and had a whole conversation with him.
01:28:26
She found out what he meant when he said he saved her.
01:28:30
She knew what what that was when GAIL asked.
01:28:32
But I figured she knew at that point.
01:28:34
I just didn't know how she how she found out.
01:28:37
So now I'm glad I know. And now I can kind of keep that
01:28:41
in my mind when I see how she's gonna be in the next episode.
01:28:45
Because this is the season finale coming up.
01:28:48
I'm kind of upset that they only had 7 episodes this season.
01:28:51
Like y'all couldn't do one more, one more, but we're getting the
01:28:57
season finale. Like I said in the promo, I
01:29:03
didn't see Tommy. I did see some Jessie, did see
01:29:07
Dina. So we will go back to them and
01:29:09
we will see some other of the conflicts.
01:29:12
At this point, I don't know if I feel like she's going to find
01:29:15
anybody else in Abby's group. Maybe 1?
01:29:20
Right now. Yeah, like by the next episode
01:29:25
I. Don't know.
01:29:28
I did see her and Jesse running in that theater though.
01:29:31
So it's like, who got in the theater?
01:29:34
Was it the was it the wolves or was it the Seraphights or was it
01:29:38
the the Coriceps? I don't know that I heard
01:29:42
someone say this is, was it Jesse?
01:29:44
He's like, this is a war. We, we not involved.
01:29:47
We, we don't need to, we don't need to be in the middle of
01:29:50
somebody else's. War.
01:29:51
He was like, I'm not about to die for this.
01:29:54
Right. Which means he's probably.
01:29:56
Going to die, which means he's going to die.
01:29:59
I hope not, but yeah. He's just there to die.
01:30:02
That's all he is. Somebody has to die.
01:30:06
I don't want that to happen, but I mean.
01:30:10
It bothers me because I thought they would try to do like 1
01:30:13
episode per team member stalking them down, which I think I would
01:30:18
have appreciated more because it's sort of in line with the
01:30:22
game, but you know, it is what it is.
01:30:24
I mean, we might get that in the third season.
01:30:26
Like you said, if, if, especially if the third season
01:30:28
focuses on Abby, it'll probably focus on her group as well.
01:30:34
Just kind of like, because I almost feel like with the way
01:30:40
that things were from the time that we're introduced to that
01:30:44
group, Abby is the one who's mostly angry, which of course we
01:30:48
understand because we learned that her father was the doctor
01:30:52
that was killed. So we understand her anger.
01:30:54
Everybody else is upset. They're angry, but they're not
01:30:58
the, oh, we're going to go hunt him down type angry.
01:31:01
Abby is the one who's that? And then they're all like, OK,
01:31:04
well we got your back, we'll help you again.
01:31:08
I don't know if I feel like they thought she would ever find Joe
01:31:12
and especially not so quickly like she found him on such a
01:31:17
weird luck. Street.
01:31:20
It was a lucky. It was just a lucky thing that.
01:31:23
Yeah, that she happened to find him and that she was able to do
01:31:27
what she did, but all of them looked uncomfortable.
01:31:30
And I wonder how that translated after they left and once they
01:31:35
got back. Like usually something like that
01:31:40
will really bond people together or to push them apart.
01:31:44
And I have a feeling maybe I don't know about Nora, but Nora
01:31:50
could have distanced herself with Abby but still been like,
01:31:53
I'm still going to protect her because she deserved to have
01:31:57
that revenge on on Joel. The other girl, I can't remember
01:32:02
her name. I don't think she was Mill.
01:32:05
Huh, was it? Mill.
01:32:08
Maybe, but I don't know if I feel like she would have stayed
01:32:13
friends with Abby because that was too much for her.
01:32:17
Like she was the one out of the group that was the most visibly
01:32:22
uncomfortable and upset with what was going on.
01:32:26
Yeah, the other two guys and maybe like I said, I feel like
01:32:33
the the tall guy, I cannot remember the names for some
01:32:36
reason. The tall guy, I feel like, I
01:32:40
don't know, he was probably closest to her.
01:32:43
So he might still be around. But I, yeah, I, I think maybe
01:32:48
we'll get all of that in Season 3.
01:32:52
I just don't see how they would have time to do it tomorrow
01:32:54
unless it's very, I don't know, because especially if Jesse is
01:33:01
in the clip talking about the war, we're going to see wolves
01:33:04
and Seraphites tomorrow. I don't think we're going to see
01:33:07
anything else having to do with them.
01:33:09
Owen Mill, Manny, Nora, Jordan, Leah.
01:33:19
I don't remember. No.
01:33:21
No, because it was only Owen, Manny, Nora and Mel and Mel.
01:33:26
Five of them, yeah. Yeah, OML, Manny and Dora.
01:33:32
OK, so that Manny is easy to remember because that's Danny
01:33:36
Ramirez's character. So Manny, Danny.
01:33:38
There was a lookout looking in the wrong place and he missed
01:33:45
LEND and and Dora I mean. Seattle is a big city.
01:33:53
It's a big city. There's a lot to keep an eye on.
01:33:57
Hopefully Abby takes those powers of plot hole spotting and
01:34:02
sees the plot holes in her story.
01:34:08
I I see even you know. I was gonna say, what plot holes
01:34:14
are you speaking? Of the fact that they're walking
01:34:20
around in the middle of the street, talking out loud.
01:34:23
Oh. OK, that yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:34:27
OK, OK, OK, OK. Being surrounded by 10 stalkers
01:34:36
and yeah yeah, I know Jesse might be a good shot, but he was
01:34:42
popping headshots in the dark. Well, I mean, Ellie shot a
01:34:48
couple of them too. She sure did all that stress and
01:34:52
pressure she's able to if. It if it comes to stress and
01:34:58
pressure or me being eaten to death, I'm going to be shooting
01:35:02
some shit. You hear me?
01:35:04
I'm going to be the best shot there ever was because I'm not
01:35:08
going to miss. Because if I miss, that's death.
01:35:13
I'm going to tell you, I was about to say yeah, but if one of
01:35:16
them is near me and you 100 feet away and you want to shoot that
01:35:20
one in the head with a handgun, please try not to shoot at me.
01:35:24
Yeah. But then again, I would rather
01:35:28
you try because even if you miss.
01:35:31
I would rather die by bullet than be torn apart by teeth.
01:35:36
Absolutely. Absolutely.
01:35:40
Said. Anyway, OK, so we got one
01:35:45
episode left so we'll do that. And then like we did with the
01:35:49
Season 1 and we will have an additional show with our gamer
01:35:57
friends who have played the game.
01:35:58
And we'll talk to them about how they like what they did as far
01:36:03
as the adaptation, you know, what they felt about the story,
01:36:08
what they wish they would have kept out, what they wish they
01:36:11
would have put in. We'll, we'll have all those
01:36:12
discussions with Game of Thrones.
01:36:14
And then how long are we going to have to wait for Season 3?
01:36:17
Probably 2027. That will be my guess.
01:36:24
So we'll. See.
01:36:27
I don't know, but you have any final thoughts about this
01:36:31
episode, About this great episode?
01:36:35
Shout out to GAIL for not hesitating and popping Joel
01:36:41
inside the head like there was no hesitation.
01:36:44
None whatsoever, and. She was not right to that like.
01:36:49
Really. You just going to lie on me like
01:36:51
that? Oh, I will say I did like the
01:36:56
scene at the dance right after Tommy takes his son home.
01:37:04
And Maria kind of sort of not necessarily apologizes to Joel.
01:37:08
But, you know, she tells him. She says, I know that comment I
01:37:11
made earlier about you being a refugee seems kind of
01:37:15
ungrateful. And he was like, no, it's OK.
01:37:17
She said, no, I want you to know I am grateful.
01:37:20
We all are. And she was talking about the
01:37:22
town. She was like, we all you're very
01:37:25
important to us. But to me and Tommy especially,
01:37:27
what I'm trying to say is Uncle Grumpy is family, which I love
01:37:30
that nickname Uncle, Uncle Grumpy.
01:37:32
But I like again, the fact that he did have that moment where
01:37:38
because you know, before you're thinking he died with all of
01:37:42
these people having said all this bad stuff to him and you're
01:37:45
thinking, wow, this guy really died unappreciated.
01:37:49
And now you find out that it's not the truth.
01:37:51
He was able to start making amends with Ellie.
01:37:55
He and Maria kind of hatch things up.
01:37:58
I think the sad part for me, too, was him and Tommy telling
01:38:02
each other, I'll see you next year, I'll see you next year.
01:38:05
And from everything that we can gather, they in fact did not see
01:38:10
each other the next year because Joe was gone on patrol early in
01:38:13
the morning. Tommy's going there in the town.
01:38:17
Yeah. So I was just like.
01:38:20
And, and actually, her saying that he was family, it kind of,
01:38:26
I don't want to say it puts what Seth said at the meeting in
01:38:29
perspective, but Seth, I think really, truly believe that.
01:38:33
Yeah, we're all family here. And someone came and killed
01:38:37
someone in our family and we're not going to do anything about
01:38:40
it. Yeah.
01:38:42
So, you know, yeah. It it would be nice for Joel to
01:38:46
have gotten that from everyone, not just Maria.
01:38:50
But I guess it meant a lot coming from her, though.
01:38:52
Yeah. Yeah, 'cause she's family, like
01:38:56
she's actual family. She's actual family, yeah, so.
01:39:01
OK, one episode left and then starts to wait.
01:39:10
So I do know that we have ATL Comic Convention coming up in
01:39:16
July. I did get an.
01:39:18
All your panels got approved. I did see that.
01:39:20
So we will be talking about The Last of Us there.
01:39:25
But yeah, I think other than that for right now, that's it
01:39:28
for our show. You can find us online at
01:39:31
www.phantomhybrid.com. We are on social media, on all
01:39:35
the social media at Phantom Hybrid.
01:39:37
You can chat with us on our Discord channel.
01:39:39
You can watch our videos on our YouTube channel, and you can
01:39:42
listen to us on all major podcast streaming platforms.
01:39:45
Thanks for listening. We hope you join the
01:39:47
conversation next time.